First published in Muziekkrant Oor, September 1981 in The Netherlands.
Interview by Bert van de Kamp.
Translated by Hans Huisman whom we thank profusely.
After a written request for an interview we're finally sitting opposite him in the lobby of the Strawberry Studios in Stockport, near Manchester. 'Martin moves in his own mysterious way' Howard Devoto had told us that same morning. He rolls a joint (the first of many) and gives me a smile from underneath his coated glasses. Behind him a photograph of Abba's Agnetha, his biggest musical hero. 'I take that picture home with me every night' he jokes. He is soft spoken, often diverges from the subject and is sometimes unintelligible. 'A lot of musicians find it hard to work with him', according to Devoto, 'because he doesn't communicate very well. He sits like
Buddha behind the mixing desk: untouchable'. England's new wave producer number one is an enigmatic character, who finds it hard to talk about his work. This is his third interview.
Jilted John, Buzzcocks, John Cooper Clarke, A Certain Ratio, OMD, Durutti Column, Joy Division, Pauline Murray, Basement 5, Magazine, The Only Ones, The Psychedelic Furs... this is just a selection of all the bands Martin 'Zero' Hannett has produced in the past five years. He has developed his own unique sound. Dub techniques, delayed reverb, elastic drums and other 'special effects' give away the producer's identity. There are people who buy every record produced by him. Reasons enough to visit the man and find out about the hows and whys. The interview including interruptions will take the whole evening and go into the night. Martin is just finishing the first New Order album. During the breaks he sits with me and answers some questions. At five o'clock in the morning, everybody else has long since left, he takes me home with him. The uncooperative man from earlier that evening has changed into a very kind and willing person.
I desperately need a holiday. I've been working constantly for the past three years now and there's danger that work becomes routine. I want progression, not status quo. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in the control room. There's no reason for that.
What's your favourite production?
Professionally speaking Soap (Magazine: The Correct Use of Soap) was the best, Closer (Joy Division: Closer) the most mysterious: that album was made as closed as possible, kabalistic, locked in its own mysterious world....
According to some the Basement 5 album was the best.
The only problem with that album is that you have to play it very loud to enjoy it to its fullest. It was the most difficult production, that I must say, the heaviest, it was 18 degrees in the shade, the end of August. As I recall it has been the most
physical album that I've ever done. It was good. It made me feel like I had been carrying bricks around.....
Bricks?
That was the feeling at the end of every day. Putting the bass lines in the right place, heavy work.....
The dub techniques on that record are very up-front. On most other records you use them more subtly.
Yeah, most of the time I do use them, don't I?
Where did you learn those techniques?
I've always listened a lot to Joe Gibbs records.
Do you immediately know how it works?
Not always (laughs), but sometimes when you're in the studio you develop certain unique, magical qualities which you don't understand yourself. I think it's because this music is so openly dope-music, dub, you break free from your cocoon, play it loud and feel alright.
When you play Magazine right after Basement 5 you cannot believe it's been done by the same producer. I hear it because I know it. Your fans say they can hear it right away.
That means that in a certain way I've succeeded in what I set out to do. I put these special things in my productions to keep them interesting and not to lose the listeners' attention. When you know what to look for, you hear them everywhere. On Soap it's more sublime.
The break in I'm a Party is clearly Hannett.
(thinks) Yeah, although I always forget what version eventually was put on the record. There are five incarnations of I'm a Party and they're all totally different. Strange repetitions and such.... you know when you're in the studio for ten days in a row, strange things happen: little ghosts start creeping around (laughs).
You can distinguish two types of producers. The serving kind, more like a technician and the creative type, that is responsible for the more artistically decisions. You clearly belong to the latter.
Mmm, maybe so, yes.
Have you ever been in a situation where a band comes into the studio not knowing what they really want?
Not really, although: Steve (Hopkins) and I recently did a few sessions with Paul Jones, for which we've also written some arrangements. I always keep my ears open for things which are out of context and don't get noticed by the band. With the Psychedelic Furs I had more artistic control. Everything was wide open. I love records with that party-feeling to them. Bowie records have that. Like everybody was having a party in the studio. In an ideal situation every band I work with have enough studio time to be themselves.
Howard Devoto told me that Magazine preferred you as a producer because you were a friend.
I prefer that too. Like there is something inevitable about the whole thing.
What are your criteria for producing a band.
There are several factors, but most of them are obvious.
I take it that most of all you have to have some affinity with the music?
The only person I've worked with without knowing him was Dennis (Morris, Basement 5).
Have you ever been approached by a Dutch band?
No, I've done the Minny Pops single and I'll also be mixing the next single by The Names, but that's all because of the Factory connection.
Maybe they are too shy to approach you.
Don't forget the costs for something like that are enormous.
Because you're that expensive?
I'm expensive, but so are studio time, travel and other expenses. Those can add up you know. Last year I was in Holland for a couple of days to record with an Italian band (Chrisma). Never heard from them again. We were at the Wisseloord Studio in Hilversum, but it was not adequate for what I wanted to do.
According to some it's the most advanced studio in Europe.
Yeah, it's a shame. It's a beautiful building, but the equipment was rather 'off the case'. Not the flexibility I have here. I was in
studio 3, a 24 track studio with a 16 track monitoring system, very confusing. The last day I was in studio 1, that was better, but we ran out of time.
According to John Lydon all mixing desks are set to a MOR sound, so you should not mind the vu meters.
I never look at vu meters. I know what he means.
Isn't that a bit paranoid?
If I want that certain drum sound, I get it from tape compression. Most of the time I keep the volume low because I want the sound in front clear and crisp. I fully understand what he means, but I must admit it's a little paranoid. It's because he's never learned anything about technique in school (laughs).
He had to release Metal Box on 12 inch discs in order to keep the desired sound quality.
Yeah, funny. Simplicity probably saved that record.
Lots of bass and treble with nothing in between.
Yeah, that's what I like too. Right now I'm reading an article in Studio Sound by the director of the Sydney Opera House in which he tells all about strange facts concerning the location of pure tones. A certain tone always seems to come from straight above your head. The ear has a lot of transfer functions, so it peaks and soothes in various directions. There's a lot to think about. At a certain moment you reach a point where the possibilities seem endless.
How long does it take before you can actually get to work in a studio that's new to you?
That often takes a week! Sometimes there's something wrong and you can't find what it is. I once crawled around the floor for a week just to find that one spot. I entered a state of existential fear. This studio (Strawberry) I was very impressed with.
10CC has recorded here. Do you like their work?
A couple of singles..... Wallstreet Shuffle, Art for Arts Sake... clever guys.
Are you a self-taught technician?
When I was in school, I was always reading auto magazines. I've always been interested in music and studios, but never did anything with it. I have a degree in chemistry from Manchester Polytechnic, but I realized that this was not what I wanted to
do. I then started working in the music business.
Hannett was the booking agent for a club in Manchester, went on the road as a roadie with the Arnie Proles Blues Band, worked together with C.P. Lee in Greasy Bear, for which he did his first productional work. After that he worked on the Belt and Braces Roadshow and (together with Steve Hopkins) on the science fiction production All Sorts of Heroes. He got involved with Rabid Records and later Factory Records. During that period he worked with Slaughter and the Dogs, early Buzzcocks and John Cooper Clarke (who's manager he became). Jilted John's first single (Jilted John) was Hannett's first hit single.
After the Jilted John single you only had a hit with Joy Division (Love Will Tear Us Apart), does this bother you?
That was a present. After that I could do what I wanted for a year. Yeah, I could use another present like that.
Is Rabid still in business?
We dismantled the organization about a month ago. It was nothing more than three very different people in a little office. It was okay for nine months, after that it became absurd. The others were more interested in video, which is fine too.
Factory has always positioned itself as an idealistic organization.
Yeah, there were five of us and now there are four: the movement of January 24th. That's still how it works. As long as the established radio stations don't play our records and as long as we don't give the DJs free trips and dinners, there's still a lot to do.
Are you disillusioned by the music business?
I still am, yes.
But with Joy Division you had a trump in your hands.
Several record companies turned us down. They had nothing to offer us.
But the records still sell.
They have become catalogue items. America is very interested. See how many stars Rolling Stone recently gave us! A new victory! These guys don't know how good it is for them to get dismantled. Anyone who works for EMI or CBS can only hope to stay healthy. To live in an environment of quasi alcoholism and lies can't be good for your health.
You're under constant pressure to have short-term success. There's no room for long term planning.
We had a long talk with CBS about John (Cooper Clarke). They absolutely had no idea what to do with him.
How long have you known John?
I didn't know him before I started working with him, although we both come from the Catholic working class in Manchester.
What's the story behind Spiral Scratch?
It was a coincidence. I met Howard and Richard (Boon) when they were looking for gigs. I arranged a couple of gigs for them and proposed to them to make a record.
Listening to it now, it sounds really primitive.
Yeah, when you play it loud it sounds exactly as if you're right in front of the stage at one of their gigs. I was very disappointed when the Sex Pistols album came out with seventeen guitar overdubs.
What do you think of the psychedelic music revival? I think you also contributed to that.
It's just substituting one reality with another.
Just when punk music swept away the remnants of the sixties' psychedelics.
Things always return. When you substitute one reality with another, it doesn't mean that's a better one. You know what it is with these old records? You listen to them and feel like you're sixteen again.
Which of the sixties' psychedelic bands were your favourites?
The Doors, Love and in a way The Byrds. When you listen to the first Doors album, recorded with Dolby, but played back without Dolby, compressed treble, incredible! Amazing drum sound. Jack Holzman and Bruce Botnick!
Are those your favourite producers?
I admire them all (laughs), because I know as a producer how much you have to sacrifice yourself. I admire producers who go over the top when there is really no reason to go over the top. Ted Templeman, I don't know who he really is but Big Eyed Beans from Venus (Captain Beefheart: Clear Spot) really is a creative technical piece. That's it really: everybody who manages to capture the good times on tape.
Phil Spector?
Oh Yeah! Those were the first records that I listened to. On fairgrounds. I used to stand underneath those enormous Wharfdale speakers. At that time I was eleven years old.
Bob Ezrin?
Berlin (Lou Reed) is one of my all time favourite albums.
After finishing it he had to go to hospital for treatment.
There was an extraordinary group of musicians involved in making that album: Jack Bruce, Steve Winwood...
His approach is rather dramatic, Wagnerian you could say...
I hate Wagner in every way.
What is your opinion about the British psychedelic bands: Pink Floyd etc.?
The Pink Floyd was great until Syd left. In those days Chris Lee (C.P. Lee of the Albertos) had me listen to the Velvet Underground: the transcendental possibilities of sound.
The second Velvet Underground album contained tracks like Sister Ray. That was a rubbish bin of sound. Everything out of balance, mixed in a superstoned way.
Yeah, I love this uncontrolled approach. It's fun to do that with a computer. It's about the only fun thing about mixing with a computer. You mix something without listening to it and than play it back.
On which record did you use a computer.
Both of the Clarke albums. In one way or another it was necessary to do it that way.
Did you have a great deal of artistic control while making these albums?
Yeah, too much (laughs), practically everything except for the lyrics. It was great fun making those records, nobody was allowed to feel bad during the recording sessions.
Did you play on those records?
Just bass. We really tried hard on the special effects. The one note guitar solo on Postwar Glamour Girl took us 8 hours to record! That's when I realized that after Disguise in Love I had to make a quantum jump. It was okay, but not really what I had in mind. I was too much impressed by working with a computer desk.
What is your trademark?
A certain disorder in the treble range, I don't know, I can't tell you.
You use a lot of reverb, all sorts of effects, a sharp guitar sound...
I hardly have any control over that. It's the way I hear things. In a perverse way I have ordered myself to reevaluate sounds to create a different perspective, to draw attention, to shock...
There's a lot of depth in this studio, from behind the mixing desk you look into some sort of a tunnel.
That's what I mean with a different perspective. When I was mixing Soap I had some moments of intense pleasure. Burn (I Want to Burn Again) is my favourite track. Why isn't Howard a star?
You've also done some live shows with The Invisible Girls, haven't you?
I thoroughly enjoyed that. I then discovered that I couldn't stand upright and play at the same time. That's when I grabbed a chair.
Robert Fripp also plays while sitting on a chair.
I don't know if that's because he can't play when he's standing upright. The first King Crimson album is one of the few British records I bought in the late sixties.
Is there some sort of a Manchester scene in comparison with the Liverpool scene?
There's less energy here than in Liverpool, there's a lot of tension here. When you're on the streets in Liverpool, the energy's all around, but it's been a while since I've been there.
It's not that far from here.
It could be another planet! In 1975 I went to Liverpool every week to check out bands.
Why are you so fascinated with Abba?
Because of her (nods toward a picture of Agnetha). Whenever I'm somewhere where there's a jukebox I play an Abba song. It cheers me up.
A lot of these singles are so run of the mill, so artificial.
Yeah, but that's what makes me laugh. Especially the albums! Tracks like When I Kissed the Teacher, hahaha! But it makes me happy. Whenever I read an Abba interview and it says the girls couldn't be there because they left to go shopping, that makes me laugh.
Led Zeppelin have recorded their latest album at the Abba studio in Stockholm, why didn't you go there with New Order?
I wanted to! But Rob Gretton wouldn't go along with it. The fact is, that here in Manchester I always suffer from bronchitis. It's not a good place for me. In the wintertime I usually go to London. Last winter I
stayed here and got sick.
How will the next New Order album be?
Good. Some elements have stayed the same, but a lot has changed. It's a different band.
How well did you know Ian (Curtis)?
....
Was he somebody you could get to know?
Yeah, he was an ordinary guy, but without a doubt there was something great about him.
You also worked with The Only Ones.
That cooperation with them was not optimal. I did The Big Sleep in two days. I needed more time. I don't see them as a band but as a vehicle for Peter Perrett's songs held together by Zena's magical glue. They should have made a hit single, but then why wasn't Another Girl, Another Planet a hit.